CrossFit NYC: The Black Box

Question about Tabatas in general--
What is the "better" workout:

1) Pullups: 9, 8, 7, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5
Pushups: 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 9, 9, 9
Situps: 10, 10, 9, 9, 9, 8, 8, 8
Squats: 21, 20, 18, 18, 16, 16, 16, 16
Total: 38

OR

2) Body Rows (Rings): 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5
Pushups: 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9
Situps: 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8
Squats: 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16
Total: 38

Both workouts produce the same tabata total, but in workout #1 there were 9 more body rows, 5 more pushups, 7 more situps, and 13 more squats.
So essentially, should we be shooting for a higher "tabata total" or a higher number of total reps? It looks like you do more work in #1, but end up with the same total.

Sean
This is a long standing debate. On one hand, the score is the same so debate over. On the other hand, doing more work is a good thing when working out. The problem with the second example is that you start out at 38 and have to maintain it for the whole workout. You can never get better than 38. In the first example, you start at 50 and end at 38 so you have a chance of getting a better score if you can maintain the intensity.

Could Athlete one have done better if she started more moderately at 46? Could Athlete two done better by starting a little stronger? Who knows?

Over repeated attempts at this workout, both athletes have the chance to improve. Athlete one will simply try to last longer. Athlete two can simply add one rep to each exercise and try to maintain it. Which strategy will lead to a better score? Both.

Over the long term both athletes can still improve and probably will. The tortoise and the hare both win in the long run.

Keith! I was only kidding this morning.

Why do you like to punish us so???

Because he is evil. Pure, pure evil. He's almost as bad as that Durden fellow.

(Actually, I heard that Josh requested FGB as well, so don't feel badly, Avery.)

I just finished my 10k. i ran the whole thing straight through in a little over an hour. Nothing spectacular but considering I've never ran that far in my life I'm happy with it. I didn't wear my compression shorts underneath my normal shorts today so for about the last 2-3 kilometers my inner thighs were chafing real bad; they're still extremely sore right now.

Those Fight Club sessions look fun. I can't wait until I'm back out there so I can join! I'll be back July 8th to spar with you guys. I'll have to see if I can find some of my old equipment here at my mom's and bring it out there.

Adam

If we're still taking slogan suggestions for the next series of Crossfit NYC t-shirts, here's my idea:
Do you have what it takes to be a Black Boxer?

Maybe we could have a picture of Josh's face too.

Not only did Avery rock out 297 points on Fight Gone Bad this morning, but she also helped clean up all your shit from the night before. Everybody from the evening class better run that 10k today because when I catch you I'm going to PT you until your assholes are sucking buttermilk!

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

!

Allison if I ever ask you for advice on running ever again your response should be "DON'T DO IT!"

I'll see everyone in a freaking week.

I hate running

My Fav WOD of all time and Im still down for the count. Maybe one day I can train again.

I would llove to do FGB but need to try not to piss off Keith and respect my rest day. Kidding aside--I really do need those rest days!! Maybe just a 500m row since Keith put me up to it??

to weigh in on the hare v tortoise (as someone with two monts cf and one week tabata experience);

i personally think athelete #1 is getting far more benefit and is in fact the way i do it at home with tabata push ups. i know i can do a min rep of 8-10 but start at 20-24 and kill myself on eah one and never stop on a round just because i already the min from a prior round.my thinking is that ia am bulding up aerobic/anaerobic/muscular endurance and that pushing myself whle under maximum/increasing stress is the way to do it. 24 seems to be the very max i can get in a tb pu round so my goal is 24 min ie maxed out 24-24-24-24-24-24-24. i can't imagine how i'd acheive that doing 8s or 10s when none of those have been under serious stress. slow and steady might win the race but won( ever pound out 200 push-ups ;)

just one man's thoughts...

Yes, you can blame FGB on me.

Also, I have absolutely no idea what "I'm going to PT you until your assholes are sucking buttermilk" means, but I think it's my new favorite phrase.

I got 284 on FGB. It was just me and Avery this morning and she went first, while I kept score for her. Not only did she beat me by 13 points, she did it while making it look easy. She's got some Jedi-mind-trick breathing up her sleeve or something. Meanwhile I was gasping for air by the end of round 1. When I grow up I want to be like Avery!

Josh, apparently Durden's watched Full Metal Jacket a few too many times...

Allison you are too kind. You make push presses look easy. And you blazed through round one like nobody's business.

I like to think I practice the art of zen breathing ala Lance Armstrong while working out. And I try not to sweat. Too much.

Buttermilk + sucking assholes = smile on my face this morning

Avery- I need lots and lots of running therapy. Is the workshop still going on?

A2, you just need to keep running. It'll get better, I promise. Just don't overdo it--build up gradually. It's less painful (both physically and mentally) that way and also safer for your musculoskeletal system.

You better be in today for FGB, I don't care if you're sore from your run last night!

I'm with you Michael. In my opinion (based on limited and non-certed experience), CrossFit seems to ask us to be hares more than tortises. I imagine Hares ultimately hit the "walls" harder, turn in lower WOD times, and put smaller "t"'s in the demonimator of our Power Formula.

Yesterday I "tortised" my pullups and squats and "hared" my situps and pushups. Just focusing on 1 from each, I went hard (by Moon Standards) on my pushups starting strong with 9 but then I slowly ground myself down until I ended up at 5. At the end I really felt I had given it about all I had short of having a .45 aimed at my head by someone who wanted to see me hit one more rep.

By contrast, I held back on the first round of squats to 11, figuring that after the previous 3 rounds, I would be operating under par. I kept targeting that number each time and while I was definitely tired, had no trouble hitting the mark each time. Physiologically, I don't think I got as much out of the squat set that I could have had I started with a higher number and slid down to 11.

UMM.. I can't move.

the mens health urbanathlon has opened up for registration.

solo: 110$
teams (of 3):$165

registration:
http://www.menshealthurbanathlon.com/regform1.cfm

lets do this.

one thing that solidified my thinking on all this Moon was mike's post wod discussion on perfect form as the ony true way to develop power, which is our goal afterall. it s easy to blast through a wod but if you aren't focused on form/range of motion you cant compare that wod to the next time you do it.

likewise i thing tabating with a 'score' in mind vs doing as many perfect reps as you can each and every round cheats yo out of the purpose of tabata and cf. the difference between somone who has gone 20-16-12 whose goal is to get at *least* 12, ie to get as many as possible just lihe s/he did the first round, and someone who stops if they hit twelve is nights and day. the latter sees no reason to 'waste' effort since it won't affect score; the former sees every rep not as wasted but as an opportunity to build that much more power and endurance.

i did the latter yesterday for the first time and while i am pretty sure i got a better score because of it, i dont think got near the benefit i should have. as daffy would say 'wabbit season!'...

Another thing to keep in mind about tortoises and hares is that Pullups and Pushups use smaller muscle groups than situps and squats. The legs have an enormous ability to keep going under fatigue. Therefore going ballsout on squats is an intelligent strategy. However, due to the inability of the upperbody to keep going under fatigue having a more conservative strategy for the pullups and pushups is warranted.

That is not to say that after repeated exposures to workouts of this intensity your upper won't adapt. It most certainly will but it will take a while. You'll see people that have been doing crossfit for a long time able to be more aggressive in pullups and pushups. It's rare to see that out of the gate.

And I get to miss another WOD this week. :(
I'm quitting work and school and becoming a full time gym rat.

Tereza you're a genius. I wish I thought of that.

kids! don't forget tonight is OPERATION MORAL SUPPORT.
love,
your pal,
dammit

Hey Juan, that Urbanalon sounds like fun. I'm down

would be cool to go represent and get the box out there, show the other fitness freaks what we got.
dropped off a copy of the registration forms and a lil sign up sheet to see whos interested.

For the next few hours I get to enjoy my high score of 343.

Hey, lunchtime workouts are kind of fun!

311

Sweet--chicken and arugala and green beans for lunch. The zone rules... :| When is German chocolate cake day?

265 for my first fight. I definitley need to work on my sumos (back / shoulders yada yada). I'd like to break 300 on my next go 'round. This was definitley a tough one especially with little more then 1/2 day since tabata-this.

I was doing so well with lunch before you mentioned chocolate cake Dan-O. Grazi :|

By the way Avery, *damn*. The 297 didn't mean much to me when I read it at 10:00 am but at 1:00 pm... I repeat. Damn.

Yeah, I could have broken 300 if I hadn't had to clean up the gym this morning. Arranging those ab mats and hanging up the jump ropes totally tired me out beforehand....

OK, I guess it's time for me to start participating in and being one with this message board and you all at the Black Box. So, I was at 248 today (scaled, 41# and 8 kg). Could have done without that wall ball though!!

i hear ya' Avery. For the record i did put away my toys manana... i'd hate to think i cost you a rep ;)

Here’s how I look at it:

There is no question that (8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8) is superior to (11,10,9,8,8,7,6,5). This is reflected both in the score (8 in the former, 5 in the latter) and by the simple observation that more effort is used to go from 5 to 8 in the final 20 seconds than is given up going from 11 to 8 in the first 20 seconds.

The more interesting question is whether (11,10,9,8,8 7,6,5) is superior to, say, (6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6). The former totals 64 but scores 5. The later totals 48 but scores 7. Is it fair to give a much higher score for considerably fewer reps? I think the answer is yes, because the person doing 64 reps for a score of 5 is missing the point.

The person is behaving like someone running a one-minute first quarter mile in a one-mile race and finishing with a time of 7 minutes because the last three quarters take 2 minutes each. The person has potential to run much faster than 7 minutes, if only he would pace himself.

The last comment should be changed to read:

"The latter totals 48 but scores 6."
". . . the person doing 64 reps for a score of 6 . . ."

My first "fight gone bad" 207!

I don't know Hari, it reads a little to measured... I mean sure consistency is important, but so is pushing yourself hard. But also, the tabata protocol is different than a race. In a race, fight, etc. there is a point to being measured, because if you go out hard early, and then gas, you lose. But sometimes in training, its important to go balls out to see how far you can push yourself. If you never shoot for higher, than how do you know how far you can go? Thats why you do it in training, so when the "competition" comes, you know where to go.

"The person is behaving like someone running a one-minute first quarter mile in a one-mile race and finishing with a time of 7 minutes because the last three quarters take 2 minutes each. The person has potential to run much faster than 7 minutes, if only he would pace himself."

Hmm, I don't know if I agree here Hari. In a run for time, the point is to get the *fastest* time and you need to know how to pace yourself (as a non-runner I'd argue that consistently pushing yourself hard fast would show the greatest long-term gain).

A tabata is specifically designed to build endurance i.e. how many reps of a given exercice you can do after exhausting yourself doing the same exercice.

In your example, person B managed 6 reps after doing a total of 42 in 7 sets prior. Person B howevef managed 5 after doing *17* (or 40%) more, a far more impressive performance under fatique conditions. There is no analogy in racing, unless of course you want to count sprint tabatas (next up on my agenda). I still say the purpose of tabatas is balls-to-the-wall, not pacing, not final score. Or think of it like this; just don't keep count of anything but sets; do 8 20-second sets of any exercice as hard as you can with 10 second rests. I think that is the core tabata concept. The score is meaningless *except* as a benchmark of improvement.

CrossFit is being discussed over at MetaFilter, a very large community blog. Only members can post but if you are one, join in - defend - educate - recruit. http://www.metafilter.com/62245/What-is-Fitness

Oh - and I hit 253 in my first FGB. I pulled "250" out of my buttermilk-sucking asshole as a target and unknowingly stumbled across it at the finish (stumbled across the goal number - not my buttermilk-sucking asshole.)

Is anyone running the corporate challenage tomorrow night? If you are i will be with team Fidelity. Come over to our tent and say hi!

Hey sorry to beat this to death I just think it is a critical tabata point we are discussing;

in the analogy you gave Hari, the real point is this;

Person A simply has to continue what he is doing (59 reps in 7 sets) and try to add *1* to his last set to equal Person B's min. Person B on the other hand has to add almost 1/3 more reps to his 7 sets AND maintain his last set minimum to reach Person A's total. I'd say Person A is lightyears past Person B.

Anyway, I'll keep you appraised as I am 'Person A'; been doing Tabata push-ups for a week balls-to-wall, so far best is 98 Max/8 Min. Next goal is 110/10.

Sounds like you guys are all having fun. I am taking some time off since I'm sick. I caught some kind of bug. Ill see you soon.

I feel your pain Kevin, its going around. Been out since Sunday, and tonight finally feeling human again.

WORD UP. I'm sick too but it's beacuse of the run and a bug with 1000 legs.
I've only smiled twice today. I'm very sad.

Justin,

"the tabata protocol is different than a race. In a race, fight, etc. there is a point to being measured, because if you go out hard early, and then gas, you lose. But sometimes in training, its important to go balls out to see how far you can push yourself. If you never shoot for higher, than how do you know how far you can go?"

I understand your general point. Under the Tabata protocol, the winning time would go to the person with the best slowest quarter, which would not necessarily indicate who won the overall race.

Michael,

"Or think of it like this; just don't keep count of anything but sets; do 8 20-second sets of any exercice as hard as you can with 10 second rests. I think that is the core tabata concept. The score is meaningless *except* as a benchmark of improvement."

I see your point. The person doing (11,10,9,8,8,7,6,5) has the best chance to improve his score. He or she should be striving for (11,10,9,8,7,7,7). Put another way, I think this athlete has more potential.

Michael,

I think your follow up comment is absolutely correct:

"Person A simply has to continue what he is doing (59 reps in 7 sets) and try to add *1* to his last set to equal Person B's min. Person B on the other hand has to add almost 1/3 more reps to his 7 sets AND maintain his last set minimum to reach Person A's total. I'd say Person A is lightyears past Person B."

then again a2 you,re the only person on pic record *laughing* while doing cleans... that should make you happy ... rest up and come back kicking a**..

238 I'm somewhat happy with this

chiefly defrayed, not by the exportation of gold and silver, but my space layouts disney villians supposing, that either to preserve or to augment the quantity of jevbuaumpp

chiefly defrayed, not by the exportation of gold and silver, but my space layouts disney villians supposing, that either to preserve or to augment the quantity of jevbuaumpp

oh man what are you all doing? It seems like the only thing you do is writing comments. Don’t be crazy!

Hm... generally I agree with you, but I wonder what our readers would tell.

This is 100% real. I’m so glad that internet has people, who write so wonderful, and who don’t lie online.